Chizuko Ueno with Junko Sakai
Lady Murasaki Shikibu and Her Desires
Junko Sakai
Do women secretly wish to be raped?
Ueno
You explicitly wrote, “I wish a mishap of the Casanova-types.” It is a women’s dream that a man of power yet good looking get so badly tempted to make love to you, so did he to his true content. But after the love affair with you, he should die lonely and desperate, but your life should remain as secure and happy as ever.
Sakai
If I were forced to make love to Michinaga Fujiwara and dumped by him, then I knew I would wish him a mishap for certain. (laughs)
Ueno
Hmm, you thought Lady Murasaki would be no exception, and it progressed just as you thought. One interesting thing is that most female characters died unhappily.
Suetsumuhana was one exception that she lived free from jealousy, envy and poverty, wasn’t she?
Sakai
It was obvious that she wasn’t loved by Genji. The more a woman is loved by him, the more misfortune happens, right?
Ueno
Do you think that Lady Murasaki punished beloved women?
Sakai
I think that’s part of it.
Ueno
You say that Lady Murasaki envied Genji’s legitimate wife insidiously just like Rokujo-no-Miyasudokoro couldn’t help putting the death curse on Genji’s wife, Aoinoue.
Sakai
Lady Murasaki’s husband Nobutaka wasn’t a man of power at all and he died quite young. Nonetheless, she wasn’t even his legitimate wife. I guess she was quite envious to recognize happy wives.
Ueno
Aoinoue was cursed and killed for nothing. It was very unjust that such an innocent woman was killed for her man’s guilt.
Sakai
I guess that Lady Murasaki was taking so much pleasure when she was writing the chapter on Murasakinoue’s death. (laughs) I sensed her writing momentum in that part.
Ueno
Her death is one of the story’s highlights as it is also featured as a theme of yokyoku song.
Sakai
Had Rokujo not been, the story would not have taken such a course, so I really understand why Mariko Hayashi put the spotlight on that part.
Ueno
Yugao is also an unfortunate character, since she was kidnapped and killed by Rokujo’s evil spirit.
Sakai
When I read Yugao’s abduction, my deeply kept lava-like desire to be kidnapped was stirred. It was one of the motifs for me to write this book.
Ueno
It is a sensuality to feel when you are put in the situation totally out of your control. Once before, some women got together and looked at rape pornography targeted for men, and then we discussed whether women have a rape desire or not. We realized though that women pretty much get aroused by pornography. So we analyzed why that happened. Then we knew that we get excited because we are exempted from being responsible for our desire.
Sakai
You can say that it wasn’t me who was to blame…
Ueno
I have to be responsible for my desire if I take the initiative doing this, so I want to avoid taking initiative. You get raped, but you indulge yourself in pure fleshly pleasure. Well, lucky you! But only if everything is under your control.
Sakai
That means if you are attracted to the guy.
Ueno
Yes, attraction it is.
Sakai
No way to be raped by a man I never feel like making love to.
Ueno
The answer to whether women have a desire to be raped is yes and no, meaning that women want their own fantasized rape to happen. That’s it. But poor men misinterpret that and think women generally want that, and the men completely misunderstand women’s intention. The same theory can be applied to women, too. I was totally convinced with your logic when I read your book.
Sakai
I have been studying what this desire is in me and wondered if it is really a desire to be raped. Now I think it’s a universal desire of women that can be called a desire for consensual sex that appears to be rape.
Ueno
Looks like that.
Sakai
When I was a child, I was extremely interested in the scenes of a horror comic where someone was drugged with chloroform and taken away. (laughs)
Ueno
One of the points to stimulate your sensuality, I guess.
Sakai
Perhaps Yugao and Ukifune also had their inner points stimulated.
Ueno
But the abductor should never be General Higekuro. Such desire is not unusual for women, but it cannot be expressed and recognized if you are bound by political correctness. Having experienced the political correctness dominant phase, I now analyze women’s arousal by looking at pornography and discover many truths about women one after the other. This book of yours and my book, “Misogyny: Onnagirai,” are evidence that feminism in Japan has gone through some rough patches and has matured to let up on women to realize that we can express not only what is right but also what is hard to admit.
Sakai
I didn’t know exactly how to handle my own raw and contradictory desires, one of which, my feministic desire, gets stimulated by your books and the other one, which is a desire to be snatched away under the influence of chloroform, and this still lingers in myself.
Ueno
When my book “Misogyny; Onnagirai,” was published, various people told me that I finally, after many years of writing about the aging society and nursing care issues, wrote a book that struck right at the core of gender studies. But after 10 or 20 years, I didn’t return to the exact same place where I used to be. I used the concept of misogyny in that book, and it meant to accuse men, but at the same time, women have to face up to our own self-hatred. By doing that, I could write the dark side of women without feeling a restriction. It is not possible to write about women’s dark inside just by criticizing men, but along with feminism maturing, women have gained a concept by which we can analyze women’s self-hatred. There are tons of women’s dirtiness in my book, you know?
Sakai
Surely it has some cathartic effect as well as wounding me to the quick.
Ueno
When feminism was tied down by political correctness, I could only write about the bright side of women, and I shut my eyes to women’s abhorrent side. Today we have gained a tool to analyze women’s dirtiness and darkness, and we can express that, which is good, but you, Ms Sakai, have gone through the process of feminism maturity all by yourself. It is really an admirable achievement of yours.
Sakai
I have been aware of my feministic gut feelings, but I couldn’t avail myself to take a right action, or I easily relied on a man. I couldn’t sort out my own contradictions, which I have had quite a bit in myself.
Ueno
Everyone has. We are all human to be contradictory.
The man to be left behind alone
Ueno
Murasakinoue is also an unfortunate woman.
Sakai
She is one of the least desirable women to me.
Ueno
The least happy one despite that she must have been loved by Genji the most…alas. She was denied by her creator to become a mother, the only viable lifestyle back then if you were a mistress.
Sakai
That’s the cruelest aspect of Lady Murasaki. This denial of her becoming a mother is the most cold-blooded fate given to her compared to that of others such as being cheated or being a target of jealousy.
Ueno
One of Muraski’s cruel punishments is that Murasakinoue had to raise a child (Akashi no Himegimi) whose mother had an affair with Genji behind Murasakinoue’s back. It is extremely harsh both to the mother and the daughter because they had to be forcefully separated, and the foster mother who had no other options.
Sakai
Indeed, it is heart-breaking. As Murasakinoue poured all her affection out on the little girl, I cannot help guessing how her true feelings were and feel tremendous compassion for her. By the way, Murasakinoue herself was abducted by Genji when she was still a small child, but funnily, I wasn’t aroused at that incident as in the case of Yugao or Ukifune.
Ueno
It is nothing but child abuse, trust me!
Sakai
If an abductee is sexually mature, I can be excited about the abduction, but if a child is an abductee, it is certainly a crime. Genji could do that because he had the power.
Ueno
And he enclosed her completely just like we do to the cattle.
Sakai
I would say, “at least let her renounce the world to become a nun!”
Ueno
You have an intriguing standpoint about becoming a nun. Women couldn’t choose a man or couldn’t choose whose woman to be; there was no choice for women at that time. However, there was only one choice they could make by themselves, and that was to become a nun.
Sakai
Saving a way out for women could be their tool for survival, I guess. But poor Murasakinoue wasn’t even given that option.
Ueno
Another interesting aspect of Genji that you pointed out was that female characters took their initiative and denounced the world willfully in a brisk pace. On the other hand, Genji procrastinated to take action to become a priest even though he kept on saying that he would. You described Genji as “a man to be left behind,” and I liked that.
Sakai
We know many such men; he has been saying he would divorce, but never does; or he has been saying he would quit his job, but would never does.
Ueno
Who did leave him behind? Every one of his women did. The worst revenge from women after betrayal by a man is leaving him behind.
Sakai
Lady Murasaki wanted Genji to be left behind all alone after every woman had died.
Ueno
Did Lady Murasaki have someone whom she wished to leave behind?
Sakai
(Chuckles) I cannot help wishing for a Casanova to be left behind alone. Lady Murasaki must have been surrounded by a number of men who could be the model of Genji, but she had such a man of confidence, Michinaga Fujiwara, very close to her. If I were her, I would feel for him just a little bit, yet I wouldn’t be able to suppress my urge for revenge against him to a certain extent.
Ueno
You wouldn’t let Genji die quickly and manly, instead letting his misery last longer and harder. You are quite mean, aren’t you?
Sakai
I thought it was a taste of Murasaki’s gentleness that Gengi’s death wasn’t clearly described.
Ueno
If you were in Lady Murasaki’s position, how would you treat his death?
Sakai
I am not a novelist, so I would write in a very vivid manner that he was struck by an unimaginable misfortune and died after hopeless struggles.
Ueno
So you would strip him of his glory and beauty.
Sakai
He becomes an emaciated and weary old man.
Ueno
First he gets old; then gets thrown out of power, gets abandoned by mistresses; and his body gets very frail …
Sakai
Alright, I wouldn’t mind letting him have one woman, say Suetsumuhana.
Ueno
No way, then you might create another version of Tosa Gengi by Tsuneichi Miyamoto. It would go like this, “not pretty but warm-hearted Suetsumuhana took care of Gengi till the very end of his life, oh well.” No, it’s not tragic at all. It’s a happy ending story. (laughs)
Sakai
I would like that Genji can only keep a woman who is so dull that he would rather wish to get rid of her. But he would never be allowed to have a compassionate and tactful woman such as Hanachirusato. (laughs)
Dream story for women
Ueno
Were you aroused at Ukifune’s indecisiveness when both Kaoru and Niounomiya declared their love to her?
Sakai
Yes, I was. It was as if the fire flared up momentarily very bright before it was extinguished.
Ueno
That is certainly a story of women’s dream written by a woman. The reason why the Korean TV drama “Winter Sonata” was such a huge hit is this: first, a good-looking man has made a pledge of eternal unchanging love to the woman; second, the woman gets two such pledging men but is never able to pick one. These are the points that make female viewers aroused.
I heard that my friend watched this drama and got really frustrated and said, “Why on earth has this woman, Yoo-jin (Choi Je-woo), been so wishy-washy? She gets on both sides, to Kang Joon-sang (acted by Bae Yong Joon) and also to Kim Sang-Hyeok (Park Yong-ha). But you know, my friend, me being wishy-washy is one of the arousal points.
Sakai
Another Ukifune. What will happen to Yoo-jin at the end?
Ueno
She finally chose Kang Joon-sang, but then he was involved in a car accident and became blind. To become blind means that Yoo-jin will be forever kept as young and beautiful in his memory. Thus, he will never be attracted by other women in the world. That makes him an ultimate yard bird to her. This is the ultimate arousal point for women! (laughs)
Sakai
That’s not her fault that he became blind.
Ueno
Exactly! This is one heck of a well-plotted story. I was deeply convinced and understood why this story is so appealing when I heard the screen writer was a woman. I happened to watch the episode of the famous Polaris story. Joon-sang gave Yoo-jin a Polaris shaped pendant top and said, “Look at the Polaris! It is always there and shining. I will be your Polaris and watch you and guard you forever.” (laughs)
What women are most worried about is the man’s change of heart, right? Genji often changed heart, but he kept his women’s life security. (laughs) Joon-sang dedicates himself to both his absolute love and the life security of his woman. Nonetheless, when he became blind, he had to rely on the women 100 percent. That is a total turnaround of their positions. Isn’t that a masterpiece?
Sakai
Absolutely, yes! You make me feel like watching the program right now. (laughs)
Ueno
They are both stories of women’s dreams – the Tale of Genji and the Winter Sonata. They are dream stories written by women. But look! There is revenge against men and bullies to women in the story. The books are worth reading with a pantoscopic and multilayered point of view.
(This series to be continued)
Original Article on the WAN Website (June 22, 2011) http://wan.or.jp/ueno/?p=407
Translated by Yoshiko M.
Source: http://renzaburo.jp/yokubo/index.html
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