Feature Dialogue with Chizuko Ueno --Part I--
In commemoration of the publication of Lady Murasaki Shikibu and Her Desires
Chizuko Ueno with Junko Sakai
Lady Murasaki Shikibu and Her Desires
Junko Sakai
About the Work
The desire to give away secrets, to poke fun at ugly women, to bring misfortune to the Casanova-types—
A thousand years ago or now, the way women think has not changed.
Many books have been written on the Tale of Genji, but watch what happens when Junko Sakai reads into the Tale of Genji using the keyword of “desire.”
The Tale of Genji is the number one long-seller in the history of Japanese literature.
The fame of its author, Lady Murasaki Shikibu, is not limited to Japan, extending worldwide.
For Junko Sakai, who had read the original Tale of Genji many times and had always wanted to write about it, this was her long-awaited chance.
Sakai, who has a reputation as the unrivaled spokesperson of the female perspective, presents her fresh new interpretations of the Tale of Genji.
Chizuko Ueno, whom Sakai greatly respects, is a sociologist and leading authority in women’s and gender issues in Japan, and has expert knowledge about studies on the Tale of Genji.
In the following dialogue, these two women dig deep into the Tale of Genji and the mind of Lady Murasaki.
Excerpt from the Forward
Throughout her work, Lady Murasaki expresses her innermost, rawest desires of all the things she wanted to do and wanted to have done unto her. And these are the very desires that undoubtedly exist among us today.
What kind of burning desire was Lady Murasaki nurturing beneath her flowing black hair and heavy ceremonial kimono? For clues, look no further than the Tale of Genji. By revealing and breaking down each of these desires, I hope to make Lady Murasaki and the Tale of Genji more familiar and accessible for the modern audience.
About the Author
Junko Sakai
Born 1966 in Tokyo. She began writing magazine columns while still in high school. After graduating from the Rikkyo University College of Tourism, she worked for three years in an advertising company, after which she became a full-time writer. She won the Fujin Koron Literary Award and Kodansha Essay Award with her book The Howl of the Loser Dog. Her other works include I’m a Beauty, Made it at the Last Minute?, Women and the Railway, The Sweet Tooth’s Wandering Journey, You’ll Know if You Wear it!, How to Burn the Kinkaku-ji Temple and many others.
Hikaru Genji – A Supporting Character?
Ueno
As I mentioned in my book "Misogyny; Onnagirai" (Kinokuniya Company, Ltd.), when you (Sakai) first made your appearance in the publishing industry, I was thrilled to see a female writer bring into the male-dominant media a female culture that is irrespective of the male point of view.
In Lady Murasaki Shikibu and Her Desires, you talk about how the world of Heian-era court ladies is similar to the world of all-girls schools.
Sakai
Yes. At first, I had avoided the classics because I had the impression that reading them required painstaking study. But when I realized that the world of Heian court ladies had much in common with all-girls schools, with the drama and fun times and all – when I realized there were all these similarities, I began to like Heian women’s literature more and more.
When did you first start reading classical works of this sort?
Ueno
I’m embarrassed to say this, but I haven’t actually read the original. I was really impressed when I heard you had read the Tale of Genji in the original, and what’s more, you taught yourself. Usually, women who want to read the original seem to join reading clubs so that they can seek the help of literary experts.
Instead of going to the original, I read the modern translations – first, the one by Akiko Yosano (a woman). Yosano’s language is so crisp and dynamic, and the plot moves forward in long strides. Later I read the modern translation by Junichiro Tanizaki (a man), which was much more sentimental and almost more feminine than Yosano’s version. This made me realize how vastly different the various translations are. Have you looked at the modern translations?
Sakai
Yes, I did look through them. But the Tanizaki version was a little too difficult for me, so I mostly referred to Yosano’s translation. I also browsed through translations by Fumiko Enchi and Jakucho Setouchi.
Ueno
What about Mariko Hayashi’s version?
Sakai
Yes, I’ve read it.
Ueno
What did you think?
Sakai
That one is more like Hayashi’s own rendering of the story rather than a translation, don’t you think? Setting up Lady Rokujo as the central character, I thought, was an unexpected and delightful twist.
Ueno
Yes, her choice of character and point of view is masterful.
Even though the court lady culture in the Heian Court is a prime example of women’s culture, the study of court literature has traditionally been dominated by men. For the longest time, male scholars, who held classical Chinese literature as the conservative mainstream, looked down on the Tale of Genji as suspicious, second-class literature because it was written using the syllabic kana script (rather than Chinese characters). Thus, the Tale of Genji was passed down from generation to generation by women. This changed in the 18th century, however, when a weirdo by the name of Norinaga Motoori brought attention to Genji by rating it highly. Since then, Genji has become a canon in Japanese literature and many male scholars started to study it.
Women weren’t allowed to enroll in the Tokyo Imperial University until the end of World War II, so the world of Japanese literary academia was all-male until after World War II. After the war, more and more women were allowed into universities, giving rise to the first female literary scholars– Yoshiko Shimizu and her generation being the first. Shimizu rejected the then-commonly accepted notion of Genji as a story of lust and eroticism to claim that the Tale of Genji is a story of marriage and power (Discourse on the Tale of Genji, 1966). That’s where the tradition of female interpretations of Genji started. Have you done much reading about these historical trends?
Sakai
Actually, no – not at all.
Ueno
For example in your book, you talk about how one theory argues that Genji is almost a rape literature. Do you happen to know who the first person to come up with this theory was?
Sakai
No, I don’t.
Ueno
The first person to boldly proclaim that Genji is a story of rape was Taeko Tomioka. Tomioka took Shimizu’s “story of marriage and power” model and took it further, claiming that these “marriages” were nothing but forceful coercion, hence a “story of rape.” Then came along the feminist literary scholar Kimi Komashaku, who claimed that Genji is Lady Murasaki’s literary call for women’s solidarity.
Other interpretations have also existed, like the one asserting that Genji is literature of the women, by the women, for the women, in which women craft the ideal man on whom to place all of their wishes.
Taking these historical trends into consideration, the interesting thing about your interpretation is that you bring attention to the fact that there are both positive and negative sides to women’s culture. You talk not only about Lady Murasaki’s bright side, but also the dark, vicious side. For me, that’s why your reading into the Tale of Genji is so unique and interesting.
Sakai
Would you say that people like Kimi Komashaku weren’t looking at the vicious side?
Ueno
The thing about feminist interpreters of Genji is that there is a certain political correctness in their discourse, which tends to overlook the negative aspects of female behavior.
Sakai
I think Lady Murasaki was interested primarily in depicting her female characters and not so much in creating an image of the ideal man in Hikaru Genji. For this reason, Lady Murasaki gave Genji a convenient, narrating role, almost like a supporting character. Looking at it this way, I really got the sense that Lady Murasaki may have been a man-hater.
Ueno
Komashaku said something similar. Furthermore, Komashaku said that Lady Murasaki may even have been a lesbian.
I agree that Hikaru Genji is an almost narrator-like supporting character. On the other hand, the reason why he is said to be the man of every woman’s dream is because he never abandons any of the women he becomes intimate with. Take Suetsumuhana (also known as Princess Hitachi) as an example. Just looking at her name, it is obvious that she is the kind of woman Genji would never have chosen except by some mistake. She really does have an incredible name (“Suetsumuhana” literally means “the flower that is picked last”). Even to women like her, Genji provides generous care, housing her in the Rokujo-in residence (Genji’s aristocratic mansion). In terms of not abandoning his women, he is just like the Korean drama star Bae Yong Joon from Winter Sonata.
Sakai
Sorry, I haven’t watched that one.
Ueno
I haven’t actually seen the series either, so everything I know is from what people told me. In the series, Bae’s character makes a vow of eternal love, saying his love will never change. In Genji’s case, he’s always hitting on women right and left so he obviously has multiple partners, but the love is still unchanging, one could say. At the very least, he will take good care of you.
Sakai
The Rokujo-in is more like a nursing home than a harem (laughs).
Ueno
Considering how so many women, like the author of Kagero Nikki (“The Mayfly Diary,” another work by a female writer of the Heian Period) were constantly worrying about abandonment and losing backing, Genji truly was an ideal man in that respect.
Chizuko Ueno
Born 1948 in Toyama Prefecture, she received her PhD from Kyoto University’s Graduate Program in Sociology.
A renowned sociologist, she is also head of the non-political organization Women’s Action Network (WAN) and former professor at the University of Tokyo.
In 1994, she received the Suntory Prize for Social Sciences and Humanities for her book The Formation and End of the Modern Family (Iwanami Shoten, Publishers).
Other published works by her include Patriarchy and Capitalism (Iwanami Publishers), The Under-Skirt Theater – Why Do People Care So Much about Panties? (Kawade Shobo Shinsha Publishers), The Solitary Post-Retirement Years (Hoken Corp.), Afternoons Spent Alone (NHK Publishing), Onnagirai – Misogyny (Kinokuniya Company, Ltd.) and many others.
Website managed by Ueno – Women’s Action Network (WAN): http://wan.or.jp/
A Story Written by a Mean Woman
Ueno
You have chosen interesting titles for the chapters in your book, like “The Desire to be Taken Away,” “The Desire to be Considered Intelligent” or “The Desire to Take Revenge on the Official Wife.” In a chapter entitled “The Desire to be Approached Violently and Aggressively,” you talk about how Genji’s behavior is nothing but rape – however, because he was a man of such high status (he was treated on the same level as a retired emperor), women didn’t really have the option of saying “no” to him. You go on to say that even though Genji is really just using his power to get the women he wants, because it just so happens that he is very handsome, the women may even feel a little lucky.
Sakai
The women want to choose who rapes them, so to speak.
Ueno
The women don’t have much of a choice in this kind of relationship, so you might as well make it so that it’s a handsome man of high status who gets to do whatever he wants. And even if the relationship doesn’t turn out well, it’s not so bad because it’s like buying insurance (laughs).
Sakai
Genji was able to do all the things he did because he knew he was a man of high position and had money and good looks.
Ueno
Or rather, the author, Lady Murasaki, made him that way. One of the things I found very interesting about your reading of the Tale of Genji is that you interpret the misfortunes that befall the characters in the story – death, illness, unhappy endings – as a sort of punishment or revenge that the author delivers to her characters.
What I mean is, Genji gets away with all that self-indulgence during his life time, but in the end, he loses Murasaki, his greatest love; he is betrayed by Onna-san-no-miya; he wavers in his effort to become a priest; and at the end of the day, he really doesn’t get such a happy ending. And I thought it was very interesting how you interpreted that as Lady Murasaki’s final revenge against Genji.
Sakai
That’s probably because I’m the type of woman who doesn’t wish for her ex-boyfriends to become happy. When I find out that somebody I used to date has become super rich, for example, I feel terrible. I think to myself, “he shouldn’t be so happy!” (laughs).
Ueno
Looking at Genji as a story written by a mean woman rather than just any old woman, I thought, was your unique way of interpreting the story.
Sakai
There are many aspects in the story that correspond to the deepest, darkest mean spirit in me. That’s why I think maybe Lady Murasaki was a really mean person.
Ueno
You can find some evidence of that in her diaries. There are different aspects to Lady Murasaki’s meanness, and you list them in your book. For example, some people speculate that the reason why she hated ugly women like Suetsumuhana was because she herself wasn’t so beautiful. Lady Murasaki also discriminated against country bumpkins like Oumi-no-kimi, which may have been because she herself had a complex of being from the countryside. Now that’s a mean way of interpreting her story right there.
Sakai
Tee-hee.
Ueno
It’s often said that women are especially brutal towards other women. For example, ugly women may victimize women who are uglier than themselves, or country bumpkins may discriminate against other rednecks. When a woman finds her own shortcomings in other women, the discrimination becomes ever so intense.
Sakai
Maybe it was the daughters of mediocre, “halfway-between” aristocrats who wrote stories like this to vent out their frustrations and complexes.
Ueno
I guess the same can be said for girls who enter elite all-girls schools late (laughs). Which type were you, Sakai-san? A born elite?
Sakai
I went to an elite school since elementary school.
Ueno
So were there discriminating girls like that around you?
Sakai
Well, I was the one doing the discriminating (laughs). So I can really empathize with Lady Murasaki.
Ueno
Drawing parallels between the Heian court ladies and all-girls schools really is eye-opening.
Sakai
In all-girls schools too, those girls who were of high birth and were truly beautiful didn’t discriminate against others – they had friendly personalities.
Ueno
They don’t have any jealousy or envy, that’s why. What they say about beauties being bitches, that’s a lie – intelligent, handsome-looking people are usually generous and friendly too.
Sakai
Everyone treats them well, so there’s no need for them to become crooked.
(This series to be continued)
Original Article on the WAN Website (June 22, 2011) http://wan.or.jp/ueno/?p=407
Translated by Yoshiko M.
Source: http://renzaburo.jp/yokubo/index.html
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